Forza 5 has mandatory free day-one DLC. Won't work w/o it.

[TurnBased]

Okay, let's lay it out in bullet points para klaro...

- Warhawk and MAG are online multiplayer only games. Same as World of Warcraft, Marvel Heroes, League of Legends and all those MMOs out there. There is no problem with these games requiring internet connections because they do not have offline single player.

- The time that it does become a problem is when even the single player mode requires you to be online. See Diablo 3 and SimCity. This was also the problem with Xbox One's previous required 24 hour check ins, which I am ecstatic that Microsoft has reversed.

- I'm sure everyone here has the means to maintain a stable internet connection. I, personally would have been able to manage the Xbox One's 24 hour checks ins and Forza's day one DLC. I can download that Day One DLC just fine. That isn't the problem.

- Then again, not everyone is as fortunate as us. Please do not assume that what works for you will work for everyone else.

- The problem is when this thing becomes a common practice. If this thing catches on, then more games may come out with MANDATORY day one DLC. If that happens, then Microsoft's reversal on their policies will have been negated. You will still need to constantly check in in order to play.

- 10 to 20 years from now, if I am to find a used disc of Forza 5, will I be able to play it? Or will it be forever unplayable since the Day One DLC and Microsoft's servers have since been taken down? This is already happening btw. DLC for Marvel Ultimate Alliance is no longer available, and online servers for games like Halo 2 and other old games have already been taken down. This hurts the long term value for games. At least I know my PS3 collection will live on, same my PS1 copy of Final Fantasy VII.

- You are also effectively buying an incomplete product with the promise that it will be fixed at a later time. A good is supposed to be verified as functional and complete upon the completion of the point of sale. Up to this time, day one patches are generally accepted but still frowned upon. It makes developers lazy, thinking that they can release an imperfect product and fix it later.

- Bottomline, I am against Digital Rights Management and Microsoft's previous policies. I see this Day One DLC of Forza's as a way for Microsoft to ease people back into their previous policies. If enough people buy into this strategy, then there's nothing stopping Sony from doing the same, and we'd be living in a dystopian DRM future. It's not an issue whether I can download the patch or not, but the damaging long term effects of such a practice.

[xgh0st12x]

- Warhawk and MAG are online multiplayer only games. Same as World of Warcraft, Marvel Heroes, League of Legends and all those MMOs out there. There is no problem with these games requiring internet connections because they do not have offline single player.

**Then this really should not be a problem for Forza 5 which only requires a measly 1 time connection.**

- The time that it does become a problem is when even the single player mode requires you to be online. See Diablo 3 and SimCity. This was also the problem with Xbox One's previous required 24 hour check ins, which I am ecstatic that Microsoft has reversed.

**Single player games traditionally will not require us to be online 24/7. Again we are talking about a 1 TIME MANDATORY connection here. We’re making mountain out of anthills again.**

- I'm sure everyone here has the means to maintain a stable internet connection. I, personally would have been able to manage the Xbox One's 24 hour checks ins and Forza's day one DLC. I can download that Day One DLC just fine. That isn't the problem.

**Agree**

- Then again, not everyone is as fortunate as us. Please do not assume that what works for you will work for everyone else.

**The irony in your statement is that you are talking about “being fortunate” Do you not think that someone who can afford a next gen console cannot afford to find a way to connect to the internet ONE TIME? No wired connection at home? Tether it with your laptop, a smartphone, an personal wifi. None of these? Go to a friend/family members house and get it done. Be realistic. Using a next gen console without the ability/affordability to connect it to the internet = having the money to buy a brand new luxury car without a gas budget.**

- The problem is when this thing becomes a common practice. If this thing catches on, then more games may come out with MANDATORY day one DLC. If that happens, then Microsoft's reversal on their policies will have been negated. You will still need to constantly check in in order to play.

**Is it not too early to say that this will become mandatory? MS just reversed to policy. For them to do another 180 in some form or another be it immediate or incremental would screw up their credibility and reputation. Even long time xbox gamers and fans would drop their consoles and pick up a Sony.**

- 10 to 20 years from now, if I am to find a used disc of Forza 5, will I be able to play it? Or will it be forever unplayable since the Day One DLC and Microsoft's servers have since been taken down? This is already happening btw. DLC for Marvel Ultimate Alliance is no longer available, and online servers for games like Halo 2 and other old games have already been taken down. This hurts the long term value for games. At least I know my PS3 collection will live on, same my PS1 copy of Final Fantasy VII.

**in 10 or 20 years? are you kidding? Yes you will! Imagine how the internet technology would have evolved and would easily become available to people by then. Just look at mobile phones and the people who have them these days as compared to the mid and late 1990s! This is at least a realistic foresight.**

On the flipside, is this not also the innevitable fates of all games if it goes according to how you forsee it will? no more MAG? No more warhawk as well? and we'll just be stuck with lusy singlle player modes of CODMW/BO, and battlefiels, etc?. Simply put... will folks still be playing forza 5 in 10 or 20 years?!?! I mean it's a great franchise... but in the league of FF7, it is not.

- You are also effectively buying an incomplete product with the promise that it will be fixed at a later time. A good is supposed to be verified as functional and complete upon the completion of the point of sale. Up to this time, day one patches are generally accepted but still frowned upon. It makes developers lazy, thinking that they can release an imperfect product and fix it later.

**Regardless of which, you are given a way to complete the product. You don’t see folks calling rebates an “incomplete discount” Patches, whether mandatory or not are here to stay. I for one am for them because it gives devs the chance to better a game. Something that they did not have the opportunity to do PS2/xbox era and below.**

- Bottomline, I am against Digital Rights Management and Microsoft's previous policies. I see this Day One DLC of Forza's as a way for Microsoft to ease people back into their previous policies. If enough people buy into this strategy, then there's nothing stopping Sony from doing the same, and we'd be living in a dystopian DRM future. It's not an issue whether I can download the patch or not, but the damaging long term effects of such a practice.


**At this stage, I would have to say that your fears are considerable yet too paranoid. (honestly, forza 5 is the first out of xbone’s many launch and subsequent titles to employ this. When you cough, do you automatically assume you have tuberculosis?) And when does happen according to how you fear it would... that’s what we call change. People who will still pursue gaming as a hobby or passion will eventually adapt to it.

Oh by the way, i too am against DRM - UNLESS it proves to show something that we can benefit from.

Furthermore, did we like numerous cases of 3RL and YLOD to happen to our consoles? No! but that was the price to pay for Devs giving us such powerful gaming devices encased in such small form factors. Did that stop you and me from gaming? No. We found ways to deal with it. And console makers eventually controlled the issue (not to a total zero though)**

**Lastly think about this. A lot of folks had already happily accepted that the xbone would no longer require a 24/7 connection, instead, it would just require a 1 time connection to activate or patch or whatever it is. Do you not think that it would be a big deal for them to do the same for forza 5? The analogy here is that if you buy an xbox one, buying forza 5 and playing it should not be an issue for you.

[TurnBased]

**The irony in your statement is that you are talking about “being fortunate” Do you not think that someone who can afford a next gen console cannot afford to find a way to connect to the internet ONE TIME? No wired connection at home? Tether it with your laptop, a smartphone, an personal wifi. None of these? Go to a friend/family members house and get it done. Be realistic. Using a next gen console without the ability/affordability to connect it to the internet = having the money to buy a brand new luxury car without a gas budget.**

Foruntate does not just apply to money but also to circumstance, ie. that student who lives in a dorm or that soldier stationed in a submarine for months. There are also people who got the console as a gift or won as a prize and are perhaps making do with second hand games. There will always be scenarios where one will be without access to internet. Having to visit a friend tethering your laptop/phone just to update your game is the very hassle that sir Daniel was talking about. As long as people like these exist, then my opinion on required online checks will not change, irregardless if I'm capable of supporting it.

**in 10 or 20 years? are you kidding? Yes you will! Imagine how the internet technology would have evolved and would easily become available to people by then. Just look at mobile phones and the people who have them these days as compared to the mid and late 1990s! This is at least a realistic foresight.**

We have different outlooks on the future then.

**Regardless of which, you are given a way to complete the product. You don’t see folks calling rebates an “incomplete discount” Patches whether mandatory or not are here to stay. I for one am for them because it gives devs the chance to better a game. Something that they did not have the opportunity to do PS2 era and below.**

Agree to disagree on this as well.

**At this stage, I would have to say that your fears are considerable yet too paranoid. (honestly, forza 5 is the first out of xbone’s many launch and subsequent titles to employ this. When you cough, do you automatically assume you have tuberculosis?) And when does happen according to how you fear it would... that’s what we call change. People who will still pursue gaming as a hobby or passion will eventually adapt to it. Oh by the way, i too am against DRM - UNLESS it proves to show something that we can benefit from.

Did we like numerous cases of 3RL and YLOD to happen to our consoles? No! but that was the price to pay for Devs giving us such powerful gaming devices encased in such small form factors. Did that stop you and me from gaming? No. We found ways to deal with it. And console makers eventually controlled the issue (not to a total zero though)**[/color]

**Lastly think about this. A lot of folks had already happily accepted that the xbone would no longer require a 24/7 connection, instead, it would just require a 1 time connection to activate or patch or whatever it is. Do you not think that it would be a big deal for them to do the same for forza 5? The analogy here is that if you buy an xbox one, buying forza 5 and playing it should not be an issue for you.

Yes, there are things in gaming which we learned to live with. YLOD, Day One Patches etc. But as consumers there are also things that we need to put our foot down to and say "NO", which was exactly what happened with MS' policies.

I'm not saying that this will happen but I'm very concerned at the possibility. Online Passes started with just one game and then proliferated. Sony isn't guilty of this either. They've baited people for years with PS Plus and free games and discounts then suddenly making it mandatory for online play with PS4(Then again, PSPlus effectively negates Online Passes so...) This thing could actually happen with Forza and it's what concerns me the most.

If the Mandatory Day One DLC with Forza turns out to be an isolated event, then I don't have a problem. My concern is if it becomes a trend. Again, the word is concern. I'm concerned because I'm actually an interested buyer in the Xbox One so of course I want it to be appealing to me..

[xgh0st12x]

I'll swerve away from the topic muna to ease things up a bit...

after reading the topic: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/07/17/forza ... -download/

It seems that these online mandatory patchable content was put in place because turn 10 are trying to meet deadline for the game's promised release date.

IMHO a mandatory day 1 patch for the sake of meeting a promised release date is waaaaayyyy >>>>>>>>>>>>> delaying a game.

Remember gran turismo 5 and its' series of delayed release dates?

Yeah... that sucked, didnt it?

[parokyano]

I agree na di problem ang internet connection para sa ganitong patch even dito sa pinas. Ako din naka tether lang yung vita sa phone ko yung 2.9 gb natapos ko ng 3hours. Kala ko nga aabot ng 5 hours nung una kasi 310mins lumabas na et.

Pero for me medyo "douche" ang ganitong approach. Pag nabayaran ko na yung game dapat ready na agad malaro.

[xgh0st12x]

True. Sana wag ganito lagi koving forward.

Pero tingin ko mas douche yung mag papangako ka ng release date, tapos puro naman delay.

At least gumawa sila ng paraan to get the game to us in one way or another.

[TurnBased]

I agree na di problem ang internet connection para sa ganitong patch even dito sa pinas. Ako din naka tether lang yung vita sa phone ko yung 2.9 gb natapos ko ng 3hours. Kala ko nga aabot ng 5 hours nung una kasi 310mins lumabas na et.

Pero for me medyo "douche" ang ganitong approach. Pag nabayaran ko na yung game dapat ready na agad malaro.

OT: Atelier Totori iyang 2.9GB no

[xgh0st12x]

2.9 gig in 3 hours? Man, that's leaps and bounds beyond what my sucky 1mbps wired connection can do at home!

[parokyano]

I agree na di problem ang internet connection para sa ganitong patch even dito sa pinas. Ako din naka tether lang yung vita sa phone ko yung 2.9 gb natapos ko ng 3hours. Kala ko nga aabot ng 5 hours nung una kasi 310mins lumabas na et.

Pero for me medyo "douche" ang ganitong approach. Pag nabayaran ko na yung game dapat ready na agad malaro.

OT: Atelier Totori iyang 2.9GB no

Yep.

@SoK
Mabilis yung one day subscription ng smart unli net dito sa area namin. 50 petot lang pero pumapalo ng 400 to 600 kbps and download speed.

[xgh0st12x]

Last OT: yup. Smart din yung gamit ko. Dual sim yung lenovo ko. Globe for calls and smart for net and tethering (para makapag surf sa office. Bwahahaha!)

[ultimagicarus99]

i got wired 1mbps too, and it's sucks these days specially on steam. buti nalang may smart bro 50/1day unli. yun lang naman ang main reason ko sa mga ganitong patch issue lalo na kung gigs upon gigs ang dinodownload mo. pero kung gusto mo talaga yung game, eh dodownload mo pa rin yan kahit 20GB pa yung patch nyan. kaya lang LESS appealing lang talaga to sa mga baguhan na gustong sumubok ng Forza 5.

[xgh0st12x]

Could be... but if they delay the release of a promised launch title, it would be less appealing to not only forza players but xbone players in general.

Methinks ms chose the lesser evil here. If they delay the release naman just to make sure all the content is there, mas lalo silang maluluto nyan not only from sony fanboys but also from their core xbox gamers.

I just think they took a lesson off gran turismo 5's experience: do not delay the release date of your console's flagship racer.

[TurnBased]

The delays for Gran Turismo has more to do with Yamauchi's prefectionism than anything else. I didn't really mind the delays but I found having to release GT5 Prologue ridiculous. Same thing with Valve and their "when it's done" philosophy with the Half Life series. Sony probably predicted that GT6 would take a while, that's why we have DriveClub.

Delaying a game's launch can have noble intentions, but then again it can also be a bad sign (Duke Nukem Forever and Daikatana)

[xgh0st12x]

Think about it though... in the eyes of your average gamer, a delay is a delay. They will alaways view this negatively regardless of what reasons are given to them.

Or what if in light of all this, turn 10 just decides to give us Forza 5 Prologue.

Hahaha! That would be hella worse.

[TurnBased]

Personally, malaki pa backlog ko. So many games to play so I don't really mind if a game gets delayed so long as it gets released eventually.

Pangit din if a game is rushed out to meet launch date. See Enter the Matrix and the PS3 version of Skyrim

[xgh0st12x]

Unfortunately, not all gamers might think like that. Some folks may think like this:

Xbone gamer: "what?! Xbone launch and no forza?! Screw you ms!!"

Sony fanboy: "hahaha! Forza 5 delayed! Ms sucks!"

[TurnBased]

let them rant then. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. That's how people got Microsoft to reverse their policies.

[xgh0st12x]

Correct!

Malay natin, marinig ms or turn 10 itong mga rants natin, magawan pa nila ng paraan para ilagay in game yung mga patches.
Pero kung hindi, ok lang din. ok na online patch. Wag lang delay.

[TurnBased]

^optional day one patch dapat.

In any case, I just hope that this will be an isolated incident and not industry standard.

[xgh0st12x]

Yeah. I hope so too. Sana isolated lang ito.
I guess we just need to understand na rin the kind of presure they are in.

Hindi lang kasi launch game ang forza 5 eh. They want to release a console's flagship racing game on the console's release date. Malaking dent yan sa launch lineup ni xbone kung mawawala yan.